Igneous' VS Thoughts: Luz VS Anne

 

Introduction

This blog is not a traditional VS blog. Rather, it is an analysis and break down of everything I find relevant to the debate of the match up Luz Noceda VS Anne Boonchuy specifically. With me going in depth on all the relevant factors, and providing an explanation as to why I think Anne Boonchuy would come out on top in a battle between the two cartoon heroines. 

For the record, this blog will proceed with the idea that you have at least a basic understanding of this match up’s debate. If you do not, I highly suggest reading this blog first instead:

https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/06/death-battle-predictions-luz-vs-anne.html

While my thoughts are not one to one with what the blog lists, I do feel reading it will give you an appropriate understanding of what is going on here if you currently lack one. Additionally I will be referencing numerous feat calculations that are found in this blog, so even if you do have experience with this match up’s debate, having the blog open on a separate tab could prove usefl. With clarification out of the way, let us begin.

Collector Scaling

Implications

The Collector has a variety of powerful feats through his short screen time. Among these powerful feats are by a mile the most impressive ones in the entire Owl House franchise. Bare minimum however, there is the large planet moon moving feat. Speed wise this isn’t impressive (only 10% C) but AP wise, 10 ronnatons, AKA 10,000 yottatons. High end of large planet level and surpassing any AP feats featured in Amphibia. There are some additional speed and AP arguments that will have notes later (or in the very next section), but the big sell from Collector scaling is Titan Luz AP Stomping Anne completely.

It is worth addressing though that Luz absolutely only scales to the Collector with her Titan form. Her base form does not compare whatsoever. Collector has one shot characters stronger than her base form like Belos’ monster form, performed feats millions of times more impressive than anything base tier characters have done, and is generally hyped up as this unbeatable god. Arguments for scaling only are for her titan transformation.

The Galaxy Bedroom

Personally I do not think the arguments around this feat matter much for the sake of this match up’s debate specifically. Regardless of its interpretation, Luz’s Titan form has a massive AP advantage over Anne regardless of whether or not this feat is used. The moon movement is already strong enough of a feat to give her the edge. Regardless, considering the Collector’s bedroom is a big point of contention, hence why it has its own section and I feel it is worth going into it anyways.

First off, what the feat would actually be worth: Galaxy level. The room has numerous stars in the background, and is stated by audio descriptions on Disney+ to be a “galaxy sized bedroom”. Thus, if the Collector did make it, he would be Galaxy level… if he made it in one go.

Typically when the Collector creates something, he tends to just snap it into existence. So for him to be Galaxy level, the Collector would have to snap the whole thing into existence with just one snap. The reason I am clarifying this is because I have seen people argue the room’s existence being both an attack potency AND speed feat (via creating all the stars overtime and therefore traversing a galactic distance, MFTL). 

The issue with arguing the room being a speed feat is that if it were, then the feat would not be Galaxy level. As if the Collector went through his Galaxy sized bedroom creating stars overtime, that means he did not make an entire Galaxy in one go. If the Collector made an entire Galaxy in one go, then he did not make it overtime. I do not see how this feat can function as both an AP and speed feat at the same time.

Of course, there is also the interpretation that the Collector did not even make the room in the first place. After all, we never find out that he did make it himself. For all we know it is just a pocket dimension he has access to or something. Though the interpretation that he did make it would make sense, considering you can argue the space being connected to his castle.

Personally, I am 50/50 on this feat being used. I think there is no clear answer about the room’s origin, and therefore, assuming either that the Collector made the room or that he did not is fair in my opinion. I do not think buying it or not buying it truly changes the debate, Collector scaling equals an AP stomped Anne regardless. However I am very confident in the feat not being usable for speed no matter what.  

Arguments For Scaling

During the events of Watching and Dreaming, Belos (possessing Raine) has a conversation with the Collector on the topic of King being a Titan. During this conversation, the Collector states, and I quote, “When they’re full grown, Titans are more powerful than anyone!”. Considering Luz’s Titan form is using power from the biggest Titan to ever roam the Boiling Isles, the dots should be easy to connect here. This statement could be inferred to mean that with Titan power, Luz would be stronger than anyone, and that anyone would include the Collector himself. Thus, scaling.

Another argument I would like to address is saying Belos’ beam he fired when he started merging with the Titan would have killed the Collector. Luz goes in to save him from the attack after all. However, I do not think this argument works for scaling Titan characters to the Collector. Right before this scene, the narrative implication was that Collector could have killed Belos had he not misinterpreted the idea of making up with enemies. The beam also was a threat for reasons not related to power. It was spreading Belos’ weird flesh moss stuff, which was breaking down life to nothing as it spread across the isles. We can see this happen when the moss consumes and kills Luz herself, and goes on to passively hurt and weaken the Collector overtime later, with him only surviving thanks to the moss disappearing after Belos loses his Titan power. Thus, Titan Belos’ beam is not a good argument for justifying scaling.

You can also argue Stringbean poked Collector’s tongue and hurt him so it and thus Luz would scale. 

“conformity in the application of something, typically that which is necessary for the sake of logic, accuracy, or fairness.”. This is the definition for the word “consistency”.

Collector one shots a monster Belos who was fighting Luz and five of her friends at once and was about to kill them, no difficulty KOd characters like Lilith and Hooty who are on Eda’s level, has minions who can solo Hexside, etc. He is narratively above base tier characters, so Luz’s Palisman comedically poking him counting as scaling is stupid and is over thinking a quick gag during a minigame montage.

Arguments Against Scaling

For starters, the Collector never has a proper fight with any individual character. They beat Belos with one tap, instantly turn Lilith and Hooty into dolls, play games with Luz, Eda, and King, and do not throw hands at any point during them, etc. Even when Belos goes apocalyptic by merging with the Titan, he doesn’t fight him, and even when he does understand the threat, he’s nerfed at the time and instead goes to help maintain his castle rather than help defeat Belos. The point of his character is that he is supposed to be a relaxed, innocent kid, who just has the wrong idea about getting along with people. That idea came into mind due to his conflict with Papa Titan ages before the series began, and that leads into the contention around the scaling.

When we first meet them, the Collector is sealed within a mirror of sorts. We later find out from the Collector that the reason they were sealed was due to the Papa Titan sealing them due to thinking he killed his kids. The reason those kids were killed was because the Collector’s superiors, the Archivists, deemed them a threat. As their enhanced screaming ability could actually push back and counter the Collector’s magic. 

Titan powers countering Collector’s magic is actually a consistent trend during the finale episode of the Owl House. Luz is able to use light orbs made from Light Glyphs to break Eda and King out of magic nightmares the Collector put them in, the HexSquad can use the same method to break others out of the Collector’s doll transmutation, the Collector himself says his powers do not work on King (though King being put in the magic nightmare contradicts this. This could be the Collector meaning effects such as transmutation specifically don’t work on him, and only indirect attacks like mental one work, it’s not super clear), and most notably, those titan kids that got killed were able to push Collector back with their base tier screams.

This is where even the strongest titan, the Papa Titan, scaling to the Collector (thus causing Luz to scale since she uses his Titan Power), can be seen as narratively awkward. The titan species is shown to directly hard counter the Collector’s magic, and even push him back (we see this in old texts Lilith finds) despite the fact those titan kids should be nowhere near as powerful as him. So with all this in mind, an awkward question is raised:

If Papa Titan was as strong as the Collector, and his magic was a hard counter, why did he have to resort to sealing him?

Papa Titan was confirmed to be enraged by both the Collector and himself after the death of his kids, and he deemed the Collector the murderer. He was aggressive, but ended up resorting to sealing the Collector and by proxy himself in The Space In Between since he could not finish the job otherwise. It does not make sense that he would have to resort to this method if he was on equal footing with the Collector in terms of power and was capable of killing him. While one could argue the Collector seems innocent at face value and Papa Titan simply just did not want to kill a child, he was clearly enraged during their ancient conflict and thought of the Collector as a murderer first, child second.

The point I am trying to make here is that the logic does not add up narratively to support the Papa Titan being on the same level as the Collector considering him having a hard counter to his abilities. If he was as strong while also hard countering him, why did he resort to sealing instead of just killing him outright? What makes more sense is that he could not put him down despite his magic countering the Collector, and thus had to resort to sealing, as he had no other effective option. While Papa Titan not scaling to the Collector would contradict his statement about full grown titans, there are other interpretations you can have about that statement. For instance, you can say the “anyone!” the Collector refers to does not include himself and he is just hyping up the titans. Even if you go with the best interpretation of the Collector’s statement, it still would come into conflict with the fact Papa Titan resorted to sealing. 

Summary

There are two different opposing points that can be hyper fixated upon when it comes to arguing Luz scaling to the Collector via her Titan form. You can either push the statement about full grown titans the Collector makes, or you can argue narrative contradiction via Papa Titan having to resort to sealing the Collector. The statement itself is very solid and is important narratively as it is what pushes Belos to merge with the Titan, but the lore about the Collector needing to be sealed is also important as it is responsible for the Boiling Isles existing on the Titan corpse in the first place.

Personally I do not have a strong opinion on Collector scaling. I think it can be used and not used for Luz’s Titan form and I will not bat an eye. For the sake of debate however (no Collector scaling means Anne just one shots Titan Luz), I will be writing other arguments with the mindset that Luz’s Titan form does scale to the Collector.

AP Arguments

Art by Sunmellows

Base Forms

Frobot Space Fire

Feat Itself

Let’s cut to the big stuff. During the finale of Amphibia, The Hardest Thing, multiple frobots work together to help push the moon. The main part of this scene worth analysis is the enormous fire created by the frobots as they push the moon. By specifically calculating the amount of fire produced via the moon size, the temperature of said fire needed for it to stay present, and dividing for the amount of present frobots (while also deducting for the extra fire the three calamity girls added), each individual frobot would have been exerting an energy value equivalent to 112.8 gigatons of TNT. Anne can physically wrestle with frobots, cut them apart, and scale to characters like Hop-pop who can dent them with mere punches. She scales.

One could argue the scene doesn’t work in a VS Context because the frobots helping in the moon push is an obvious outlier as Calamity powered characters can no effort obliterate them beforehand. However what is being analyzed here is not the moon push itself, just the fire the bots actually make. Thus this argument is irrelevant as it does not tackle the specific feat in question.

Dealing with Opposing Arguments

There are two main opposing arguments going against this feat being usable.

The first of which is calling it an outlier. There are a couple of reasons behind this. For one, this feat is obviously far above any other base form tier feat performed in the series. Two, the transformed Calamity Trio also contributed to the fire, and are far above base form tier characters, so it is an outlier Three, the amount of frobots seen is unclear and thus the division of energy is inappropriate. All of these arguments are easily countered.

For the first point, this delves into the nature of what an outlier is. “a person or thing situated away or detached from the main body or system.” or “a person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.”. People commonly attach the word “outlier” to high end feats to try and push them away. However, feats are only outliers when they don’t make sense in the context of the story based on other feats, not when they are too detached from other feats. Many series would be hurt by the logic of “it’s the only feat on this level so clearly it is not usable”. In fact Owl House is no different, as the Collector’s moon moving is far above any other on screen feat in the show. The frobot fire also is not some dismissable side scene, it is important narratively as it plays into Andrias’ growth and his efforts in the final battle. It is crucial, cannot be ignored, and thus must be acknowledged. “Outlier” does not work here.”

For the second point, the math that measures the size of the fire is looking at the fire the frobots specifically made, being the blue fire. While the Calamity Trio added to the fire, they were not responsible for all of it, and what they were not responsible for, can be attributed to the frobots, and is in terms of getting the final 112.8 gigaton value. Their involvement does not change the amount of energy each frobot produced.

The third and final point has the simple issue in that it doesn’t acknowledge the calculation… does, actually count the number of frobots we see. So, not much else to say here. Even if you were to say there were somehow 300 frobots up there in space, the amount of energy produced by each individual bot would still be over a gigaton. Bad argument for dismissing the feat.

Luz’s AP

Titan Finger Shockwave

A feat that is argued to get high stats for Luz is King causing the destruction of the Titan finger. Earlier in the episode, the finger released a burst of energy when a special key was put into it, with said burst of energy parting numerous clouds. The energy output here could be worth hundreds of megatons of TNT.. The issue with this feat is that the cloud parting came from a release of energy that opened a portal to the other side of the planet. Not the finger itself. Later in the episode this feat happens in, King only cracks the finger, causing the portal to collapse in a chain reaction. Think of it like destroying a pillar holding up a roof, not destroying the roof itself.

Since King only damaged the finger, he (and thus Luz) should not scale to shenanigans involving the portal itself. Even when the portal was destroyed and released another burst of energy, Hooty shielded Luz and King and they only would have taken a portion of the explosion’s force to begin with due to how surface area works. Meaning that no matter how you slice it, the cloud splitting portal energy is not something Luz could scale to.

Luz and Amity’s “isles shaking” scream

An AP feat argued for base form tier Owl House characters is Luz and Amity being able to shake the isles by screaming, with calculations reaching into the gigatons. I’m not going to sugarcoat it, this feat sucks.

It’s very obvious this is just a gag feat done for the sake of a joke. Luz and Amity found out their friends played magic sports with the Golden Guard and they’re flabbergasted. Screen shaking screams are a common gag in media to show surprise. This is no different. I shouldn’t have to go in depth for this, it’s pretty clear why this feat is dumb. Even if it was used, results for it still get higher than the frobot fire anyways.

Scaling to Titan Belos

Fair warning, No brakes here. I am going to be very negative and straight to the point when addressing this topic. If I offend you, I’m sorry, the following argument offends me.

The big argument revolving around scaling to Titan Belos is that Luz was able to shoot a blast that stopped a blast from Belos once he had merged with the Titan’s corpse. This is important because when moving, the Titan corpse could move parts of its body larger than islands, reaching teraton levels of energy. Since Luz could match a blast from Titan Belos, she should scale right?

I’m not sugar coating this: fuck no.

First off, the blast Luz stopped wasn’t a blast at all. It was a wave of energy that spread Belos’ weird flesh goop stuff. Her intercepting it merely caused it to spread across the area instead of hitting her and the Collector directly. But you know what? Sure. Let’s assume this random piss beam was a traditional attack. Surely it makes narrative sense for Luz to be matching a Titan corpse amped Belos right?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA FUCK NO IT DOES NOT. She spent the last two season finales getting her ass kicked by him in their one versus ones. Heck, even when she got four of her friends to help her out to jump his monster form in season 2, they were barely surviving against him and would’ve DIED had the Collector not intervened.

Additionally, that was Belos just in his normal forms. Gaining Titan power in Season 3 he grew in size from a large monster to a CASTLE SIZED DRAGON. A form he would then go on to use to casually no diff Eda and King, while the two had rage amps. You know, characters on Luz’s level, you know, getting even stronger than their normal levels, you know, getting bullied by the guy people argue she can scale to.

Her getting a palisman is surely a big help, but there is no argument that makes sense for saying it would close a large gap like this. To put it into perspective?
Base Luz << Luz with all of her friends << monster Belos <<<<<<<<<<<<<< giant Dragon Belos.
Yeah guys she totally can close that gap with the help of a shape shifting snake pet. SHE DOESN’T. I mean it’s not like she died or something when fighting him.

But the final nail in the coffin, the craziest part about all this, is that not even TITAN BELOS, scales to Titan Belos. To explain, what Luz blocked a beam from? Was just a small part of what Belos was becoming. The Belos there was just manifested as a castle sized dragon, not as the entire combined power of the country sized titan itself. Luz essentially blocked a beam from what was the equivalent of a nipple compared to the rest of the human body. No little Jimmy, just because the cockroach poked your nipple and it stinged a tiny bit, does not mean it could survive you casually crushing it with your finger. That’s stupid Jimmy you little moron, IT’S A COCK ROACH, YOUR NIPPLE IS A TINY PART OF YOU, THE COCKROACH DOES NOT SCALE TO THE FULL FUCKING HUMAN BODY BECAUSE IT HURT YOUR CHEST BUMP.

Ahem.

So to close this, Luz does not scale to Titan Belos, as it makes no narrative sense, comparable characters are completely pushed away by the castle dragon Belos, and the castle dragon Belos she actually fought was only a part of a larger whole. Case closed. Argument sucks. Rant over. Luz does not scale to teratons.

So where do I place her base form anyways?

Probably around large town to city level. The lower end feats involving stuff like vaporization of large rocks, or the more reasonable calculations for cloud parting, seem fine. Maybe she’s mountain, I’m not entirely sure as it depends on what calculations are accurate. I’d have to check stuff over. The takeaway here is that I do not buy her being close to base Anne in AP at all. The cloud splitting portal energy only gets to hundreds of megatons. The island shaking scream only gets to a few gigatons. The frobot fire on the other hand gets to well over a hundred gigatons. Luz’s only good argument to match in AP is Titan Belos scaling, and no, I am not going over that again.

Transformations

Anne’s Different Ends

Anne’s transformed AP is incredibly clear cut. Nothing complex or controversial here. Super Anne (basic blue form) would be massively upscaling any feats her base form scales to. Her higher forms have their own feats though.

In her armored form, she creates explosions visible from Earth’s surface (triple digit teratons) and aids in pushing back the Core’s corrupted moon, which gets hundreds of zettatons even when dividing the work amongst all the people pushing it. Her ultimate form when she uses all three gems pushing the moon in an instant gets to double digit yottatons, though this is a suicide attack.

So to give an idea, Super Anne massively upscales base Anne stats (AKA 112.8 gigatons) so far above island level, armored Anne is hundreds of zettatons so she’s high into planet level, and white Anne is a few yottatons getting her into large planet level.

Non-Collector Scaling Titan Luz

While Collector scaling obviously gives her some big feats, Luz still has some capable feats herself when using her Titan form. For starters, she would be scaling to Titan Belos, meaning scaling to all of his movements. His own existence and arm movements, based on his sheer size, would allow kinetic energy calculations to get from low to high teratons. Belos spreading his flesh moss across the Isles is also impressive.

The bigger deal though is Luz herself dispersing said moss. As at one point during their final battle, Luz disperses a large amount of moss at relativistic speeds (the dispersion was in tandem with specifically the light produced from Luz’s light Glyph energy. More details about this feat when we get to speed), getting her power output from low to high exatons, AKA small planet level. Kinetic energy is crazy.

Conclusion

When comparing AP, Anne absolutely has the advantage over any of the feats base Luz can scale to via frobot scaling. Were Collector scaling not to be utilized, Anne would also be far stronger once you compare the girls’ transformed states. While moss dispersion is certainly impressive, even armored Anne is hundreds of times stronger via moon movement. The moon destroying beam itself, overkill. Though of course, if Anne simply one shot, then this debate would never have been as chaotic as it has been. If you were to scale Luz to the Collector when she is utilizing her Titan form, then she is the one power stomping instead. But power alone does not determine this match, it would never be that simple.

Speed Arguments

Art by Advent_Chao

Base Forms

Light Glyphs

Why they don’t work

Light glyphs are a big argument for Owl House speed. Light spells in general have been used to create beam attacks, which one could argue move at light speed. After all, Luz’s notes mention how light glyphs obey multiple properties that normal light does like reflection, and the Isles’ magic is based on nature. The issue is that there is a distinction with the light light glyphs can create.

Whenever light magic is used, it is either used to make beam-like attacks, light sources in the form of floating orbs, or flashes of light akin to a Dragon Ball Solar Flare. This distinction is critical. Whenever beams are used, characters can typically keep up with them, and there are a lot of Rela/FTL Owl House calcs using the beams as the basis. The issue is, the flashes of light. They are exactly what I just said, light, as they are the light the glyphs produce being released in a big burst. Thus creating a Solar Flare like attack. The two times Luz used the flash against the weird book guy in Season 1, and Eda in 2, neither could react in time whatsoever. It’s clear the flash itself is un-reactable, and is what is actually light speed.

This is further supported by the fact the common light magic beams have their own contradictions. They have force and do not always move straight. It also makes sense that light magic beams aren’t light speed considering it’s not like the tiny light producing orbs Luz makes are moving at light speed themselves, that’d be silly. 

Now there are some calculations that get the Solar Flare failed reactions to Relativistic/Light Speed based off the fact the book guy and Eda show some in tandem movement with the flashes. The book guy gets like 20% speed of light while Eda’s attempt to block the light gets about 3 times the speed of light. The issue with this logic is that if the characters actually had reactions these good… there’s no reason they couldn’t have blocked the light in the first place. Natural issue with in tandem calculations.

To summarize, light glyphs are light speed, just not when characters are actually reacting to light magic beams and night lights. When just sheer light is put into the mix, no one ever manages to properly react or move in tandem with the flash without getting blinded. Thus, I don’t think light glyphs are usable for speed.

The Cosmic Light Glyph

Elephant in the room. One of many to be fair, though this is an older one. 

One time when Luz was figuring out how Glyphs work, one of the orbs from her Light Glyph flew into the sky. When she looked up, she noticed the stars twinkling in a specific pattern that matched her Light Glyphs. Through this she found out how Glyphs can be seen in nature, and thus quickly learned how to use Ice Glyphs. The argument for this feat is that the Light Orb she made traveled all the way to the stars which caused them twinkling… this is dumb.

First off, there is no direct confirmation that the Light Orb traveled the cosmic distance all the way to those stars. What most likely caused the twinkling was one of two things.

1. It was just the pattern being the way it is, and that is that. No involvement from Luz caused the constellation to shine. Just a typical effect to highlight her realization.

2. The constellation twinkling was due to the Titan’s influence, as it wanted Luz to learn how Glyphs work. We later hear a theory from Belos where he states that it was very hard for him to learn Glyph magic, “almost like the Titan did not want me to have that power”. (The Owl House, S2 E21) The idea of the Titan being able to have influence on how easily Luz and Belos could learn Glyph magic aligns with the stars twinkling. Thus, it makes sense that the shining light was due to the Titan heightening the brightness of the stars. This would mean that Luz’s Light Orb had no importance in this event, and thus you cannot argue it traveled through space or anything dumb like that.

Essentially, whether you believe the constellation lighting up is not a feat at all, or it was due to the Titan, the point stands that the Light Orb Luz made had nothing to do with the feat. Besides, making other objects brighter is not even a property of Light magic, and stronger light spells have produced far less light than the shine the stars made when Luz saw them twinkle. Case in point, Luz’s light orb did not travel to a distant constellation. There is no speed feat here.

So, how fast is base Luz?

The best speed feat for her I’m fine with is scaling to Eda reacting to and dodging a lightning attack from Raine. While applying lightning speed is pretty dubious to a lot of electricity attacks, this one is fine. He imitates real lightning by making a cloud and the bolts go straight down. It works. With this in mind, Eda dodging the bolts gets to about Mach 226. Luz keeps up with her when they work together, and they go even when trying to evade one another near the end of season 2. She scales.

Base Anne Speed

This is pretty simple to break down in comparison to Luz’s speed stuff (crazy how that works). Anne, as mentioned before, can consistently fight and keep up with frobots. Frobots can be in combat while flying at top speeds. This is important as damaged frobots (the same ones that made the island level fire) were able to fly from the surface of Amphibia to where the falling moon currently was in a short time frame. Analyzing the distance gap and applying a timeframe, this gets the frobots to about Mach 193.

I do want to add a short comment on Amphibia lasers by the way: they don’t work. While Marcy calls the Temple lasers “real lasers” in her journal, this is the only evidence for these lasers being legitimate. They don’t burn, there’s no statement about their speed, they’re just video game like beams. As for frobot lasers, these have force which is an infamous light speed contradiction, and they even break glass. You know, the stuff lasers should reflect off of. So simply, Amphibia does not have legitimate lasers.

Transformations

Transformed Anne Speed

Once Anne’s hair goes blue, it is safe to say she scales to the majority, if not all, relevant feats in the series. Speed included. She is able to move so fast that she disappears from the perspective of characters on her base form level, and states herself in Marcy’s journal that time seems to slow down for her. She is able to fly around and shoot energy shockwaves across an entire city, and notably can match Andrias Dyplosaur- Dyplodo- Dys- screw it giant mech suit, a ginormous building sized battle mecha. This is important, as logically, considering the high tech composition of the mecha and its capabilities for high speed flight, it should be superior in speed to the Core’s helmet.

After being disconnected from Marcy, the Core’s helmet proceeded to fly from Amphibia’s surface to the moon in a matter of seconds. Considering Earth’s own distance from ground level to the moon and using various time frames based on in-episode evidence (check the G1 Blog’s calculation for this feat for more details), the speed ranges from about 18.3 to 21.5% the speed of light. Personally, I prefer the 21.5% end, but there is nothing wrong with using the 18.3% one.

Some may question why a transformed Anne would scale to this however. The Core’s helmet never reacts to anything during its flight and seems to follow a uniform path, indicating no need for relativistic reactions. However, as stated before, Andrias’ mecha is very large and contains far more boosters and power use than the Core’s helmet. Being genuine, it does not make much sense logically for the Amphibian’s army’s best weapon (Andrias’ mech), which is coated with boosters and meant for high speed combat, to be slower in movement speed than a helmet whose booster is the size of a pillow. Nor does it make sense for said pillow sized booster to produce a higher velocity than someone flying with the power of a magical dimension traveling god rock. Scaling Anne’s transformed state is fine.

This scaling would apply to all of her transformed states for the record. Super Anne would scale, and probably upscale, though that would take more discussion. Her armored form on the other hand would absolutely upscale given it is greatly superior to her normal blue haired transformation. As for her full power white form, you can probably argue it upscaling even further, though the fact it will only ever shoot one attack means that said upscaling is not worth much. Though with that being said, the beam it fired at the Core controlled moon does also get into relativistic ranges. Just an extra detail.

Collector’s Space Travel

“the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.” This is the definition of the word context.

During the final moments before the big end of series timeskip, Luz states that after the defeat of Belos, the Collector would go on to “return to the stars”. We know the Collector would visit back four years later for Luz’s birthday, so we know they went to the stars and came back. Using the minimum Earth to star distance and applying a two year time frame (two years to get there, two to get back), the Collector’s speed would be at minimum 2.12 times the speed of light. Using shorter time frames and larger distances, this value can break into the thousands. Considering we know the Collector traversed this distance, what is the issue with this statement being used as a feat?

Whenever the Collector travels across the isles, they typically tend to fly across on one of their mini stars they can make. So we know right off the bat they do not fly themselves physically when traversing big distances. While you could argue they physically flew down to the isles when they first visited it due to the fact that in their backstory presentation, we see the Archivists throw him down there, this instance lacks a time frame. Additionally, the Collector being tossed down could just be a visual thing with their presentation. It does not confirm anything. And even if it did, again, lack of timeframe. 

The issue with vague space travel statements like this is that we do not know whether the character has to be reacting to anything while flying at massively faster than light speeds. For all we know, the Collector left his mini star on auto pilot, or had some different method of galactic travel. There is no way to confirm the Collector is capable of keeping up with speeds as fast as his space travel, as we do not know how he travels across space. Since we have no visual to analyze and all we have is Luz’s statement, I cannot confidently go along with this argument. If there was more context as to how the Collector performed space travel, sure, but for all we know they just sat on their star, or had a magic spaceship, or some other thing they would not scale to. This is not a feat I can have confidence in due to the lack of context.

Luz Pushing Away Moss

This specific feat, in my opinion, serves as the best speed feat for Luz, exclusive to her Titan form. During the final battle with Titan Belos, Luz creates a ginormous light glyph that blasts away Belos’ weird flesh moss stuff. She then sends out an energy wave that pushes even more moss away, and what is particular about this energy wave is that it moves in tandem with the light produced by the giant light glyph. Not the energy itself for the record, but specifically the light that energy produced. Thus, in tandem movement can be calculated, getting Luz’s purple energy wave attack from 11% to 19% the speed of light. 

Technically speaking no one ever reacts to this energy, so you can argue it does not scale to reactions, rather only attack speed. Considering the energy is Luz’s own released power though, I think scaling it to reactions is fine. It is her energy that she is pushing at that relativistic speed.

There is another feat you can argue for here though which I am against. After Luz releases her energy to push back the moss, a wave of grass starts rising where the energy traveled. The spread of this growth of grass also moves in tandem with the light released from the light glyph, and the spread can be calculated to over 80% the speed of light. The issue with this feat is a little harder to explain, so bear with me for a moment.

The reason this grass appeared is because of the after effect Luz’s energy wave had on the ground after it pushed away Belos’ moss. It is a consequence of Luz’s energy, rather than something she herself intended. I feel the best way to explain what I mean is through an example.

Let us say I spill some water across a floor, and the spill travels a distance of three meters in three seconds. The speed of the water itself is one meter per second. After the water travels the three meter distance, the floor experiences a decrease in temperature, and the decrease follows the path the water already went over. In the span of one second, the decrease spread across the three meters, so the decrease’s speed is three meters per second. It is faster than the water itself, and the water’s travel speed does not match the speed of the temperature decrease.

Essentially, the grass growth is an after effect that Luz does not scale to. It was not the speed of her own energy, but rather the speed of the consequences of that energy being spread. I know this is a weird scenario, but breaking it down, I cannot agree with the higher end argument for this feat. That being said, again, I feel the 11 or 19% C part of the feat is fine, and would apply to Luz’s attack and reaction speed.

Travel Speed

You will notice I specified in the previous section how the in tandem energy moss blah blah blah feat would scale to Luz’s reactions and attack speed. What I did not bring up was travel speed, which is what this section is for. Since I addressed her first, we can go over Luz first.

While flying on her Palisman normally, Luz is capable of some pretty fast speeds, flying across towns and cities in seconds. More notably is her transformed travel speed however. While using her Titan power, Luz was able to move at significantly faster speeds when flying, and most notably, was able to push herself down from above orbit to the surface of the planet in a few seconds. This would get her max travel speed to about Mach 92.3. Pretty impressive. Though it is worth noting that it took her a while longer to reach orbit, and that when going towards the ground, she additionally would have been accelerated by gravity. Thus her actual max travel speed is likely a bit slower. Not much slower to the point it matters though.

And it would not matter anyways, because the travel speed of Anne’s transformed states far outdoes Luz. Her armored form was capable of flying from the surface of the planet to past orbit (huh, reverse) in a few seconds, with calculations getting her speed here to Mach 152. So in terms of direct feats, Anne already has an edge. When looking at other feats done by lesser characters however, the gap widens significantly. With just her normal super form, Anne was already moving far faster than any frobot could fly. Damaged robots, like Anne’s armored form, could fly past orbit, but the difference is the timeframe. I already brought up this feat before for base Anne’s reaction speed, and the calculations, again, get around Mach 193. This would make Anne’s transformed flight speed over twice Luz’s. 

But going back to past feats again, remember what I said about Anne’s transformations definitely scaling to the Core’s helmet? That would apply for travel speed as well. Again, it would not make much sense if a rocket the size of a pillow could propel a helmet faster than a high speed top of the line mech suit’s numerous boosters could, or an isekai protagonist's magic god powers could. Again, considering Anne can blitz the speed of frobots and match Andrias’ mech in movement speed, Super Anne’s travel speed also scaling to the Core’s helmet alongside her reaction speed makes sense. Which gets her traveling between 18.3 and 21.5% the speed of light. Upscaling in armored form, by the way.

Conclusion

Comparing their base forms, they are relatively even. Luz is at mach 226, Anne is at mach 193. Luz has a 1.17 times advantage, but it is so minor that it should not mean much realistically. Looking at their transformed states is a different case though. Personally, I feel speed should be relative reaction and attack speed wise, as the gap is 11-19% C for Luz, against 18.3-21.5% C for Anne. Luz’s best case scenario is a mere 1.02 times speed advantage, with her worst case being a 1.9 times speed disadvantage. The numbers are close here though, so I do not mind just saying they are relative despite the fact you can argue Anne’s super forms upscaling 18.3-21.5% based on Core helmet upscaling. It is not a big deal.

Granted, were one to accept one of Luz’s many higher end arguments (80% end for grass spread, Collector’s faster than light space travel, blah blah blah), she would gain a speed advantage ranging from very significant, to an absurd blitz in comparison to Anne’s own speed. So that is worth acknowledging. On the other hand though, no matter how you slice it, Anne has a notable travel speed advantage. 

Using direct feats, you have Luz’s Mach 92.3 descent VS Anne’s Mach 153 ascent, meaning a travel speed advantage of 1.64 times for Anne. Using frobot flight speed, the gap widens to 2.09 times. Most notably is if you use the Core helmet flight speed, which would get Anne a travel speed advantage of at minimum (using 18.3% C, AKA over Mach 160,000) over 1,700 times. 

To put that into context, in the time it would take Luz to travel a centimeter, Anne would have traveled a fifth of a football field. In the time it takes for Luz to travel from the planet’s surface to the halfway mark between the surface and the orbit of the planet, Anne would have reached the moon, and be halfway on her way back to the planet’s surface.

So to summarize everything: base speed is relative, transformed reaction and attack speed is relative, Luz has potential to be faster in those regards depending on high ends, and Anne dominates in terms of travel speed.

Miscellaneous Factors

Art by Sunmellows

See Anne wins because her Domain is like painting on the sky while Luz only paints on a canv-

Here are just some miscellaneous factors I want to go over for the sake of addressing them, some more important than others.

Attack Range

In terms of attack range, base VS base, Luz had the clear advantage by having actual projectiles. Comparing their transformed states though, Anne gets a massive advantage. Whereas Luz can expand her energy across the Boiling Isles, reaching distances of roughly 30 kilometers in terms of radius, Anne can make large explosions in space visible from Earth. With the largest of these having a radius of up to 750 kilometers. 

Both their attack speeds should be relative to their reaction speeds as well, meaning both Luz and Anne’s transformed attacks would have relativistic speeds. Anne is the only one whose travel speed scales to her other speed stats however, meaning she could realistically avoid Luz’s attacks by simply flying away. In contrast, Luz’s Mach 92.3 travel speed would mean that she would be incapable of escaping Anne’s attack range, especially if Anne made an omnidirectional explosion.

Petrification Glyph

One of the arguments for Luz securing a KO is by petrifying Anne. Luz resorting to this is rather unrealistic however. Not because she can’t, as she is fully capable of drawing a Petrification Glyph or making a Petrification attack once accessing her Titan form. The issue is more so the fact she’s never used petrification in combat. She tested out the power once on a toy when looking at various glyphs detailed in Philip’s notebook, gave it a negative label, and never used the power ever again. Not once in combat or for any general use. She would not bother to draw a Petrification Glyph in her base form while having other options at her disposal, and she would not bother with a Petrification spell when fighting Calamity Anne in her Titan form as if you buy Collector scaling, any of her other attacks would one shot anyways.

Invisibility Glyph

One of Luz’s more potent abilities is being able to turn herself invisible for as long as she holds her breath. Anne does not have a direct counter to this, though she does have experience fighting invisible foes such as Cloakbot. Against Cloakbot, she and the Plantars resorted to exposing their location (via covering them in flour) as well as fighting defensively. With her transformations allowing high speed flight, Anne would likely think to make distance between herself and where her opponent was last seen if she suddenly saw Luz disappear. Essentially, Luz’s invisibility would be a strong option, but it would not be a game changer.

Form Duration: Luz

This is pretty simple to go over. The in episode time between when Luz first shows up in her Titan form, and the moment where the Titan’s spirit starts leaving her body (thus making her lose the form), is a bit below ten minutes. That is all this section has to say. She can go for a bit less than ten minutes. 

Form Duration: Anne

Anne’s forms tend to vary in range. My opinion on this matter has not really changed since the original Luz VS Anne G1 Blog however, so I will just copy paste my main thoughts (I wrote about form length in the Anne Verdict after all). It is easier to do that than have to reword my thoughts, only to give the same message.

“When it comes to the armored Super form, Sasha and Marcy got the form at 4:30. With no sign of exhaustion until 8:14. But Anne on the other hand, thanks to her prior experience with the powers, did not feel any strain yet whatsoever. With them only fully losing the forms at 8:59 due to them giving Anne the gems. Meaning the armored Super form should last at minimum about four and a half minutes… on first use.”

“Remember, in comparison to the other two girls, Anne was showing no signs of strain up to this point, due to her prior experience with the Gem’s power. And she showed no sign of strain up until she switched to the white form, keeping the blue Super form until 10:12 (meaning over six minutes at minimum), and definitely being able to keep it for longer. Sasha and Marcy holding the armored forms for over four minutes on first usage is also important considering Anne’s experience with the normal Super form the first time she used it in True Colors. In which we saw Anne first use the normal Super form, with it lasting from 2:39 to 3:35 before Anne lost the form due to strain. Considering the armored forms lasted longer for Sasha and Marcy upon first usage than this, this all means the armored form ironically should consume stamina slower than the normal Super form. With all these factors in mind, we can make an estimate of how long Anne should be able to hold the armored form.”

“During the final battle with Andrias in Los Angeles, Anne was able to hold her blue form through constant fighting from 4:48 to 9:46 before losing her Super form. We also know the cuts to Sasha’s fight should not subtract from this as it was shown both fights were happening simultaneously. Subtracting for the few seconds she lost the form (roughly about forty) due to heavy attacks from Andrias, Anne by end of series should be capable of holding the normal Super form for a bit less than four and a half minutes. Essentially, the final duration of Anne’s normal Super form is about four and a half times longer than her initial duration back during True Colors. Applying this logic to her armored form, she could potentially last over twenty minutes. Roughly double Titan Luz’s timer, meaning Anne’s armored blue form should be able to outlast Titan Luz.”

It is also worth noting that Matt Bradley, creator of Amphibia, has a tweet saying that the super forms could maybe last for up to five minutes with enough training. Considering Anne’s armored form lasts for over six though, this does not really mean much.

Revives

Art by TyScope3

Luz

Luz’s Titan Revive

When Luz died, her spirit seemed to magically fall into the Space Inbetween. According to Papa Titan, she wasn’t fully dead though not fully alive either, and that if she fell into the waters below she would truly be dead. Implying that when Papa Titan caught her, she was in the middle ground between the living world and the afterlife. This is supported by Papa Titan’s skeleton falling into the waters below as he gives the last of his life force to Luz later so she can go back to the living world.

As for how the revival works, as mentioned before, the process involved Papa Titan giving Luz his remaining life force. He also seemed to be able to teleport her back, though it is not completely clear whether or not this was his own doing or a result of Luz having more life force. The interpretation of this specific detail is irrelevant however as the revival accomplishes the same thing regardless.

So to break the process down: Luz dies, and her spirit is caught by Papa Titan before it fully transitions to the afterlife. He gives her his power, dying fully in the process as Luz returns to the living world in her temporary Titan form. It is worth addressing this revival is a one time only use, as naturally, Papa Titan can only give up his own life a singular time.

Usefulness of Luz’s

Luz’s revive, frankly, is not a major aspect of the debate. It will be used up when Anne one shots her base form, then Luz turns into her Titan form. As mentioned before, it’s a one time only use, and so it’ll really only be a transitional point in the fight rather than a tool Luz can use to gain the upperhand.

Anne

Anne’s Guardian Revive

When Anne died after her sacrifice after the defeat of the Core, her body turned to dust as her remains blew away. She would wake up however in a new realm (weirdly resembling a painting in her room), and then meet the Three Gem Guardian. There it would be revealed that Anne’s current body was essentially a copy of her previous one pre-fatality, and that the Guardian had brought her back essentially via copy paste. The Guardian would ask Anne to take its job as it was impressed by her good deeds, to which Anne declined due to her lack of experience. The Guardian pondered over this, and decided it would be best to send Anne back to the living world (via magic portal) so that she could gain the experience she lacked, leading to her eventually being a better fit for the job.

To outline this, basically, after Anne dies, she would go to this strange realm post-death via control C control V. She would talk with the Guardian, and then she, in her new body, would be sent back to the living world via a random portal. It is a simple process when you break it down, and everyone agrees that were both Luz and Anne to receive outside help from the Titan and Guardian, this is a process Anne could undergo to cheat death.

Addressing points against Anne’s

Put frankly, if Collector scaling is used to argue Luz AP Stomping, Anne being able to abuse her revival method to outlast Luz’s titan form is crucial to her victory. Of course, considering the presence of said revive in the show itself and the thought of someone like Anne winning through cheating death of all methods, it is natural numerous arguments have risen up against the possibility of Anne winning through revival. So, they’ll be addressed.

Three Gem Guardian Cooperation

In a standard debate, I believe that including the Three Gem Guardian is rather silly. It is its own character, it helping Anne would obviously count as outside help and not be allowed. However, since Luz’s Titan form requires outside help from the Titan to be achieved, it is only fair Anne gets a comparable source of outside help. Both the Titan and the Guardian are godly beings existing outside of the mortal plane, who favor Luz and Anne, and are capable of bringing them back to life. If Luz is being given help from Papa Titan as she needs it for her Titan form to be accessed, then it is only fair Anne gets similar help from the Guardian.

I have seen arguments that, even if the Guardian is capable of bringing back Anne from death more than once, it should not be allowed. It would be unfair to give Anne multiple revivals while Luz only has access to one. To this I would like to bring up, if we were being completely fair here, neither would get any outside help, and thus Luz would be relegated to her base form. If the Guardian is capable of multiple revivals, then that has to be considered. To give an example, this is like saying Luz should not be allowed to use magic since Anne has a smaller arsenal. A character’s capabilities should not be limited just because their opponent is inferior in a specific regard. A character having advantages that give them the edge is how versus works in the first place.

Are multiple revives even possible?

While one revival alone would be a useful asset, having access to multiple would be an absurd advantage. That raises the question on whether or not the Guardian can even bring back Anne more than once, which, yes, it can. While we never see more than one revival occur (Anne only dies once after all), we know that one day another one will happen. Let me explain.

When Anne died, she then went to the Guardian’s strange realm. It was there that the Guardian offered her the job as the next Guardian of the multiverse. We know that when Anne eventually dies at the age of 91, she will properly become the Guardian as by then she will have the right amount of experience. The important thing to consider is that Anne specifically gets revived and is sent to the Guardian’s realm so she can discuss with the Guardian about taking his job after her death at the end of the show. So, Anne will go to this place when she dies at 91 so they can finally agree on her position. And to go there, Anne would be revived in order to have a discussion.

The point here? For the in series lore to make sense, for Anne to ever be able to meet the Guardian again, the Guardian has to be capable of reviving her and dropping her off in its realm more than a singular time. This means that Anne can be revived more than a singular time. Anne is not limited to being revived by the Guardian once. If she could only get one revive, then she would never be able to take up the job of guardian of the multiverse when she dies after a life well lived. 

At this point the only argument you can make against multiple revivals is the Guardian not being able to open a portal back to the normal world more than once. But, cmon, I think the God who can make gems that passively allow dimensional travel to even be possible (this is confirmed in Marcy’s journal by the way, the gems existing is what enables dimensional portals to be opened at all) can open more than one portal.

Willingness

A big question about the revival is whether or not the characters involved in it would be willing to go along with it for a situation like this. After all, sending Anne to fight the same person who just killed her may seem illogical. One may argue the Guardian will just send Anne back to her house or something. Thus willingness from both Anne and the Guardian in this process must be addressed.

Guardian

The Guardian would run into a dilemma if Anne were to die again. It cannot make her the new Guardian yet, as she would still lack the proper experience. But at the same time, they have complete faith in Anne, so they would not just leave them dead. Anne in their eyes is the perfect replacement for their role, a well-natured, good and honest person. The only person to use the three Gems of infinite dimensional power for good across a ten thousand year time period that spanned several realities. 

The Guardian is in a position where they cannot make Anne Guardian now (heck, the Guardian is the one who proposed the idea of Anne becoming Guardian when she was more experienced in the first place. It had the idea to bring her back to the living world), nor can they “get bored” and dismiss her to the afterlife. It does not matter that Anne would be sent right back to a fight. Sending her back is the Guardian’s only ambition.

Anne

Anne is in a tricky spot here. On one hand, a crazy overpowered magic anime girl that obliterated her. On the other hand, if she stays dead, she would never get to see her friends and family again. And trust me, she really cares for her friends and family. Thus there is absolutely no way that she would want to just stay in the afterlife or something like that. Even if the situation seems hopeless, Anne has a tendency to keep going even in terrible situations for the sake of the people around her, like when she was motivated to form a plan while all her allies were hopeless about defeating the Toad coup at Newtopia.

Besides, the choice to go back to the living world is the Guardian’s, not her’s. The Guardian decided to send Anne back to the living world out of its own volition without her having any say in the matter (though she did not mind whatsoever, obviously). And in the case of a versus match, Anne’s key objective here is to beat her opponent. No reason to stay behind in the afterlife, as that wouldn’t do her any good when it comes to punching that crazy overpowered magic anime girl.

Luz and the Titan?

You are probably, no, definitely, wondering why I am bringing up Luz and the Titan in a section defending Anne’s own revival. It is because arguing against Anne’s, with reasons about willingness and commitment, actually hurts Luz’s revival as an argument more in comparison.

To compare the commitment of the Guardian and Papa Titan, the Titan is at a disadvantage here. The Guardian loses nothing by just sending Anne back with a quick thought besides two minutes of its eternity of time. In contrast, Papa Titan giving Luz his power and sending her back to the living world costs him his place in the Inbetween, meaning they can never watch over King (his son) again from their inter-dimensional spectator’s seat. If you want to argue the Guardian not being willing to help Anne over a petty children fight, then that argument applies to Papa Titan tenfold. 

The same applies for Luz. For Anne, she doesn't even have to make a choice, the Guardian is respawning her. For Luz, she has to choose to take the Titan’s power willingly, knowing what it will cost him, and make the decision for the sake of nuking some blue haired teenager. Of course, I am not saying that Luz and the Titan, in a big VS Scenario like this, would suddenly be held back by morals or wants or whatever. All I am saying is that if someone were to make arguments about hesitation against the use of Anne’s revival, that just hurts Luz more in the long run.

Conclusion

Luz’s revival is not a major aspect of this fight. It will be used up to let her access her Titan transformation, and not help her out besides that. Anne’s on the other hand is a huge factor here. With it, she could come back from death multiple times, and she would not have to use it up to access her strongest form. She could outlast Titan Luz and get numerous get out of jail free cards via it.

• Anne should get more than one revival, as the Guardian is capable of such. She should not be limited to one to accommodate her opponent.

• The Guardian should be a factor here, as it is equal leeway to include it in contrast to Luz getting her revival from a similar being existing outside of the mortal plane.

• Anne should be capable of getting multiple revivals, as the Guardian needs to be capable of such for the series’ lore to work in the first place.

• The Guardian would be willing to help Anne, as it would not enforce the consequences of not reviving her upon her by forcing her to be the new Guardian prematurely. It would not want to dismiss Anne to the afterlife as she is its perfect successor. The Guardian would send Anne back to the living world as that works out the best for the both of them, and would do so again were she to die again.

• Anne would be willing to keep fighting, as she is stubborn and hopeful to a fault. Luz’s overwhelming power would never diminish her perseverance, and her choice would not matter in the revival process regardless.

• Luz and the Titan are hurt more in regard to arguments about willingness regardless, given their higher price when it comes to their own revival.

You could maybe make arguments saying that the Guardian would simply send Anne home rather than back to the fight against Luz, but that would not count as a loss. Luz and Anne would both still be alive, and thus both would still be trying to defeat the other. A distance setback would not count as a loss for Anne. And maybe you can argue the Guardian decides to make Anne the successor early, but then that makes Anne an eternal dimension traveling God, and the discussion becomes a mess.

The point I am trying to make is that I do not see how one could argue against Anne’s revivals being a defining factor in this fight. Any and all counter arguments against the possibility have flaws and can be shut down. I will be first to agree that the argument about Anne winning through cheating death is absolutely weird and unorthodox. Not what you would expect from a Disney Cartoon protagonist match up. But at the end of the day, the arguments are there. And thus? Must be acknowledged.

Final Breakdown

Art by atomic02304

Stats

Comparing their base forms, Anne has the advantage in terms of power. Scaling to roughly a thirtieth of the fire would still put her at over 100 gigatons of TNT. This is far above any feat base Luz can scale to. Even arguing for more generous feats such as Luz and Amity’s scream still does not prevent Anne from being tens of times stronger. Arguing scaling to Titan Belos for base Luz is rather silly, so in conclusion, Luz is not closing the power gap in their base forms. As for speed, both are in similar speed ranges, Mach 226 for Luz and Mach 193.6 for Anne. It is a very minor gap so both should be able to keep up with one another just fine.

As for transformed states, speed should still be relative in my opinion. Both are at relativistic levels in terms of reaction and attack speed. 11-19% C for Luz, 18.3-21.5% for Anne. No notable advantage here. While you could argue higher ends for Luz’s reaction and attack speed, feats either lack context or reason to scale to her. On this note I should also again address that Light Glyphs make a distinction between beams or orbs, and the actual light produced. Scaling to the produced light does not work as no one ever actually manages to avoid it, so I would not agree with it being used for feats. At that point, the beams and orbs show force and only produce light, so they do not work. Also to bring it up again, remember Anne’s reaction speed and travel speed are relative, so she would be capable of flying thousands of times faster than Luz, who’s max travel speed is Mach 92.3.

In terms of power in regard to Luz and Anne’s transformed states, there are two different directions you can go here for Luz: not scaling her to the Collector, or scaling her to the Collector. If you do not use Collector scaling, then while Luz would be ranging from high exatons to low zettatons, Anne’s power output would be worth hundreds of zettatons. Into the low yottaton range when using her big sacrificial beam attack while she has the power of all three gems. It is safe to say that without scaling to the Collector, even Luz’s Titan form does not stand a chance against Anne’s full power.

Including the possibility of Luz scaling to the Collector, the script switches. Now Anne is the one who cannot compare in power at all, as Titan Luz would be ranging from thousands of yottatons to galaxy level in terms of power output. So to summarize stats:

• Attack Potency: Base Luz < Base Anne < Super Anne < Titan Luz (No Collector Scaling) < Super Anne (armored form) < Titan Luz (Collector Scaling)

• Reaction/Attack Speed: Base Luz = Base Anne < Titan Luz = Super Anne and her other transformations

• Travel Speed: Titan Luz < Super Anne and her other transformations

Winning Arguments

In order to push either of the two winning, there are some specific arguments that you have to make to prove they can win. Think of it like needing the right materials to build a bridge. Though of course, there are multiple routes, and so I will detail each one.

To prove Luz wins, you can go with one of the following arguments:

• Debunk Anne getting more than one revival

• Argue base form Luz is higher in attack potency than base form Anne, so that outlasting her Titan form doesn’t matter

Keep in mind you also have to get Titan Luz scaling to the Collector for either of these arguments to work. Otherwise, Anne sets off a thousand kilometer long nuclear explosion and fries her.

To prove Anne wins, you can go with one of the following arguments:

• Debunk Titan Luz scaling to the Collector

• Prove Anne has access to multiple revivals and has the power edge in a base versus base fight 

• Argue Anne can outlast Titan Luz’s timer via travel speed and range

That last argument is easily the least safe, as against a Collector scaling Titan Luz Anne would not be able to afford taking even a single hit. Technically speaking though, considering her armored form should last longer than Titan Luz, her travel speed is over a thousand times greater, and her range is tens of times greater, it is definitely a possibility. Especially if Anne were to notice Luz lose power overtime. Slowly, but still surely.

Closing Thoughts

As I said at the beginning of this document, I believe Anne wins. The best way to present my thoughts, I feel, would be to tackle the points I mentioned in the section about Winning Arguments. Seeing which arguments hold up, and why Anne has the overall advantage. We’ll go in order, meaning starting with Luz.

“Debunk Anne getting more than one revival”

As I have said before, I do not see how you can make any argument against Anne’s revival. Arguments against it:

1. Ignore in series lore: Anne cannot stop living before having the proper experience needed to feel worthy of getting the Guardian position. At the same time, she is the only worthy candidate of getting the position, so the Guardian would not dismiss her. And we know the Guardian can bring her back more than once, as reviving her is how the two are capable of meeting in the first place.

2. In-character behavior: Again, the Guardian would not dismiss Anne as it favors her. Additionally, Anne would not give up after a single loss due to her stubbornness and tenacity.

3. Go the other way around: Arguments about willingness and hesitation will always hurt Luz and Papa Titan more, as unlike with Anne’s get out of jail free card, there is a cost to Luz’s revival.

“Argue base form Luz is higher in attack potency than base form Anne”

The only Owl House feats that you could feasibly scale Luz to that would get her AP in base above the frobot fire scaling Anne has, is arguing base Luz scales to Titan Belos. Refer to my previous rant.

Oh, and arguing base Luz scales to the Collector, for those who are curious, is even dumber.

I would also like to address that, again, Luz’s Winning Arguments can only even exist if you think that her Titan form scales to the Collector. On that front, either you think it does not make sense in lore for Papa Titan to be on the Collector’s level, or you think the Collector’s statement about full grown Titans overrules other evidence against the scaling. Pick your poison. Now it is Anne’s turn.

“Debunk Titan Luz scaling to the Collector”

Refer to the paragraph above.

“Prove Anne has access to multiple revivals and has the power edge in a base versus base fight”

I already tackled these topics while going against Luz’s winning arguments. There are no holes you can pick in the argument about Anne’s revives (except maybe ones that would just cause bigger holes in Luz’s as a result), and there are no feats Luz can logically scale to that get her above the frobot fire.

“Argue Anne can outlast Titan Luz’s timer via travel speed and range”

As I said before, this argument is not exactly safe due to the fact that with Collector scaling, Titan Luz one shots Anne, even at her peaks. But as I also said before, there is some merit to this argument. Anne is over a thousand times faster flight speed wise, meaning she can easily create massive distances between her and her opponent whenever she wants. Her significantly superior range adds on to this, by letting her attack from a distance Luz cannot reach. It also helps that when her hair goes blue, Anne states in Marcy’s journal how she views the world in slow motion. Faster thinking would definitely help with quick decisions and getaways. It is also likely Anne would resort to this strategy were she to notice Luz lose power overtime.

All this being said though, I am personally not the biggest fan of this argument. Anne likes fighting up close, so it is not like range is going to be her go to strategy here. While she is definitely the better fighter, especially in hand to hand, that does not change the fact that Luz landing one attack is death. Additionally, Anne finding out about Luz’s power decreasing is very unlikely. The only way I could realistically see her finding out about this factor is if Luz’s attacks suddenly decrease in speed and scale. Though you would also need to say that Anne would be perceptive enough to put the pieces together. Additionally, fighting an opponent who completely dwarfs her in power might encourage her to use her all-or-nothing 3 gem beam attack, which would do nothing due to the power gap, and would kill Anne.

Final Statement

Comparing the arguments present, I just do not see how Anne loses. Luz’s winning arguments run into too many walls due to just how tight Anne’s arguments actually are. In contrast, Anne’s arguments are too tight to properly counter. There is genuinely not a single point I have heard against Anne’s revivals that does not have some sort of flaw that makes it fall flat, leaving Anne with her greatest asset and an advantage Luz cannot bypass. Even if Collector scaling gave her Titan form the needed power to dominate, Luz can neither bypass revives nor win the base versus base fight due to the power gap, and therefore, Anne Boonchuy simply lacks the weakness to luz this fight. Yes, that pun was legally obligated.

Thanks for reading like twelve point seven thousand words of versus debating nonsense. Or not if you just skipped to the end for some reason (the winner of this document was literally announced at the beginning of it there is no point). 

If there is another versus idea that I have extensive knowledge and experience with similar to this one, I might do something like this again. Until the opportunity presents itself though, I’m signing off. Thanks for reading.